Nathan: Hello everyone and thank you for, uh, joining Barely Shipping. Today I am here with a guest, Romana Kutz, founder of SaaStorm, an agency helping B2B SaaS companies across Europe and the UK turn organic traffic into AI search into real qualified pipeline. Romana is one of the sharpest voices I've come across on the intersection of SEO content strategy and LLM optimization.
In fact, so much so I reached out because of a post that she wrote, which we're gonna talk about, uh, pretty soon. She's an AirOps content engineer, which as a Copy.ai advocate just breaks my heart, but we're gonna get over it and keep moving on, uh, a Scrunch and Claap brand ambassador. And she's built a content system that helped clients hit number one in AI search visibility and drive millions in pipeline and organic traffic.
Romana, thank you for coming on the show.
Romana: Thank you so much for having me. Also, this is like the best intro I've ever got on any podcast, so thank you for
Nathan: Are you serious? This is great. [00:01:00] Oh my gosh. Great. Thank, well, I'll tell you what, and I want to make sure that, that all of that was, was spot on, but also pitch yourself. Give us the 30 minute second pitch, not at the end. Forget that. Give us your 30
Romana: Yes, of course. Will do. Yeah. Thank you so much. Uh, so yeah, as uh, Nate mentioned, I'm Romana and I'm founder of SaaStorm and SaaStorm is a B2B SaaS marketing agency, and honestly, an agency that is built around the idea to drive pipeline and revenue. Of course we track all the things like keywords, clicks, impressions, the classic SEO metrics, but our kind of main goal is always to help companies to grow organically and to grow organically in terms of pipeline revenue and like actual business.
So, yeah, and to be honest, like I have a journalistic background, so I love to talk, I love to go on podcasts. I love to share what I know. And I think that also helps me a lot with my LinkedIn presence because to be honest, SaaStorm was fully built on like a founder led brand. So our entire agency was kind of completely built from me [00:02:00] writing about what I know, what I think and what I don't agree with, and it's been working.
Nathan: And as we covered right before the show, you are very blunt. So if you don't wanna be on a podcast, you have no problem saying it. You've got double.
Romana: Yeah, Nate said like, oh, I'm so sorry. You probably didn't like, you were thinking like, oh my God, why I am joining? And I told Nate said, like, not a problem at all, because if I would not want to be here, I would be very direct and I would tell him honestly.
Nathan: I was immediately intimidated because it's like, okay, well, as I ask a question, I'm just gonna, you're just gonna be like, that's a dumb question. Move on to the next one. So that'll be good.
Romana: I hope that, no, but let's see. Who knows?
Nathan: Alright, well we'll get started with the, the first, hopefully not dumb question. Uh, you took a climate tech SaaS client from near zero search visibility to roughly 3 million pounds in pipeline in 12 months.
Is that correct?
Romana: Yeah, I would say honestly, yeah. Yeah.
Nathan: Okay. And I, I don't wanna talk, I know most companies dive into, oh, what, like what was the plan, the strategy that made it happen? I don't wanna talk about the [00:03:00] highlight reel. I actually wanna talk about what you were shipping before it started working. 'cause it's not like you hit a button and the next day.
It works. What I'm curious about is what gave you the confidence to stay the course before you had proof that it was working, and did you have to talk anyone off the ledge at any point in the first 90 days and be like, just, you gotta trust me. We can't pivot.
Romana: Yeah, that's a very good question. And to be honest, I got lucky with this client because they really, really had a lot of trust in me. I don't know why, because we didn't have a lot of cases or anything, but like they were like, you know what? We loved your pitch. We love you pre what you prepared in like pre-sales process.
Like let's go, let's try. So I got really lucky with them actually not like pushing and expecting results immediately. So I think it took off like a bit of pressure from my shoulders that like I have to deliver something right now. So honestly what happened, climate tech is a very interesting, uh, industry in general, and I honestly kind of trying to steer SaaStorm [00:04:00] into that direction more and more.
We now have, I think around five clients in climate tech. And for this specifically, what I did first of all, I really took time to understand what they are doing because it's not just like an, I dunno, sales recording software or it's like a email infrastructure for your company. It's been like a very, very intense topic of like carbon intelligence.
So I had to take a step back and understand like, what do they do? What companies are they working with? What's their ICP and what this ICP would be looking for, because I have no knowledge, so I would be looking for something super basic like what is carbon? You know, but like they would not be looking for this.
So I think taking this time helped me a lot and patient on my client's side also was really appreciated in this moment, as you can imagine. And, and then to be honest, what was the best is like establishing the right system and collaboration system in place. I think you were talk, uh, talking as [00:05:00] well, Nate, about like system led growth and I think for this client system was exactly what helped us to get the first results.
So we had a very clearly step-by-step defined system on how we were working. So for example, we defined topics with their company and with their like subject matter experts. Then it went to me and I produced content briefs. I produced content briefs, but like I only know as much as I can find and figure out and research.
So then this content brief would go through like approval from a content manager on their side and a subject matter expert as well. Only when the content brief was approved, it went back to me. I did like a final check if their edits still made sense in terms of SEO, because we still want to optimize for search engines, you know, and only then it went to my content writer.
After content writer, it went back to me. Then again, review by a client. So basically we had like a three, I would say [00:06:00] like three or four layered review process within our system and I think there's like a constant feedback plus still them respecting my SEO knowledge and allowing me to add some keywords and tells them that like, Hey, H 1 or meta title should be like that.
It really helped us to get results. And honestly, we were just like constantly executing the same, the same system, kind of the same process for like three, four months and we started seeing results. So I think like. Them respecting my boundaries, but me also being flexible when say like, Romana, this keyword makes no sense.
We have to like just not use it. And I'm like, yeah, but it has 200, uh, like volume searches a month. You know? So I think like system respecting each other's boundaries and making sure that we kind of work consistently it, that's kind of what happens. So consistency and collaboration.
Nathan: It sounds like the perfect storm. Ah, the perfect SaaS storm. That was a ridiculous joke. Okay. But like the client trusted you. [00:07:00] You had a good experience and knowledge in place. The thing that I really love is hearing that you started with the the topical research, not like, am I optimizing this for humans or am I optimizing this for the algorithms?
I gotta know the substance of this stuff first. And I think a lot of people skip that step in the system, which is kind of silly 'cause it's like the most important part. Okay. That.
Romana: Yeah, I agree. And you know, like I feel like a lot of people are just afraid to ask questions because like they came to me to do marketing, right? And I would need to be like, sure, let's do it. But no, I ask questions and I ask questions like guys, like, explain to me literally like I'm a 10-year-old. You know what, you can type to ChatGPT, like what you do.
Like, you know, I think just being honest and asking actually, like how you think, like stupid and silly questions. It's actually what helps you to kind of get uh, everything right.
Nathan: Oh. I could, I could absolutely hug you right now if you weren't so far away, because I feel like I've met so many people [00:08:00] whose posturing and ego gets in the way of getting the fundamental questions right. And I've noticed, and I, I, this, I don't wanna lead the witness by any means, but I have imagine that asking those questions actually forces your clients to get really clear on their messaging and what they do and how it all works, which I think is a great exercise in itself.
Um.
Romana: and it's honestly, it's a fun thing to ask sometimes. And then if their marketing team cannot answer that question, or if their marketing team cannot show me how their product works, I'm like, okay guys, then we have a bigger problem here. Like, let's take five steps back, you know? Like that also happened.
I actually had cases when company was like, uh, like marketing managers were like, oh, I don't know. I don't have a login into my product. I'm just like, please, I don't want your like, head of marketing or CMO or CEO to hear that ever, but like, let's figure it out together. I had it.
Nathan: Oh my gosh. Didn't have a login. Okay. Well, hey, that's a contract expansion. We're gonna, I'm gonna [00:09:00] throw this into the contract. I'm gonna get you your login for you.
Romana: Exactly. I'm like, finally, it's been two years, maybe. Finally, we will know what your product does.
Nathan: Yeah. Okay. All right. Sorry. I could talk to you about the incompetency of teams forever, but I wanna know about, um. As you're optimizing what we were talking about, do you write for humans, you write for, uh, the algorithms. But right now we're in a weird shift of writing for Google and for LLMs at the same time.
So two different systems with arguably two different reward mechanisms. Do you think they conflict in structure or style, and if so, do you give priority to Google or the LLMs? And if not, is a AEO just a new thing for companies to charge for?
Romana: Yeah, that's a very good question, honestly. Um, I'll start with the, your last kind of question about AEO being the like things that people charge for. I hate seeing when agencies just like have their pricing model. And everything like, uh, transparently. [00:10:00] And then out of nowhere they added like this new block on the pricing page, like add on a AEO.
And I'm just like, what do you mean guys? Like, how can you have it as an add-on? Like, so they will do SEO for you, everything is included, but if you want also to be in LLMs, they are like, yeah, you need to pay two grand a month more.
Nathan: yes.
Romana: That's honestly, I'm just like, no, please. Like if, if I would ever have it SaaStorm just like, Nate, please just message me.
It was not me. And we were hacked because. I really feel like as SEO, LLMs, uh, whatever, AEO or GEO you want to call it, it's all it, everything is coming from the same core of a good foundations of search engine optimization and. Some people, of course, they will disagree with me. However, I was doing a good SEO for other companies before LLMO started, and when all of that stuff started, companies that we were doing good, SEO, just organically started showing up in LLMs.
I didn't do anything [00:11:00] extra, nothing. Zero, literally zero. But they started getting traffic from LLMs, like why? Because like LLMs, taking information from your website LLMs, taking information from the articles that are ranking traditionally, it's all still coming back to the same good old SEO. And of course like, to be honest, now we are adding some extra things.
Like you can check what listicles are showing up in LLMs and do like a little outreach to them. Now we like. We were experimenting with like adding LLM.txt files like you can do some little extra things. But no, it just, it just good content with good keywords, with FAQs, and I was adding FAQs before LLMO started, but now like everyone's just like, FAQs is just a new thing.
I'm like, no, I did it in 2014. You know? So that's kind of my take. I'm curious to hear what you think, because I'm definitely, I think you talk to different people with different opinions as well.
Nathan: I, [00:12:00] yes, and I really quick, I'm just writing down, I was adding FAQs before LLM started 'cause I'm gonna make that a t-shirt. I swear to you that's gonna go on a t-shirt. I'm gonna
Romana: I.
Nathan: it to you. I think that's the greatest line ever. Yes, I, uh. I couldn't agree with you more, and I, I get frustrated, like you said, there are things you can do Absolutely.
That help FAQs, uh, schema markup, all of that. Um, uh, structuring questions, adding more long tail, you know, questions to be helpful, moving to video and you doing YouTube shorts. But when you said it's just, it's still good content and it's, you know, the way that I've always defined. Good. And feel free to use your bluntness to correct me on this, but I've always defined good as.
It has to be accurate, it has to be clear, and it has to be helpful. And if it's those three things, we can talk about the wording and the style and we can talk a little bit more. But if it's not those, any of those three things, then it's definitely not good and high quality.
Romana: Yeah.
Nathan: think for both [00:13:00] SEO and AEO. I just think people are overthinking it and honestly.
I, I got, I got the chills when you talked about adding that add-on for AI visibility as a separate, like, let's mark up, 'cause I just see like people like, yeah, let's make
Romana: They're like, yes, extra money. Upsell, Woohoo.
Nathan: we could keep underpaying our employees, but we could keep all the money for ourselves. Yes. This is
Romana: Literally, that's kind of how I see it as well. And you know, like I agree with what you mentioned about three things that make, uh, good content, good content. And I think just like before LLMs we were, we were allowing ourselves to be, uh, like, to be a bit lazy because we knew that like. Even if you don't ask him or my car, even if you don't add that video, even if you don't add these images, we can still kind of hack the system and get into top one, but now you just need this extras.
That was always needed, but we were kind of ignoring it because now you actually need a video, inner images, interactive graphics, ROI calculators and all of those things. But you [00:14:00] always needed them. Let's be honest. We were just like, whatever. I can rank us even without this.
Nathan: Yes. Once you learned, once you took a few years and developed a certain set of skills, which makes it sound like the movie Taken, but once you had a certain experience with SEO, you really could almost just roll out of bed and start ranking for content if you knew how to structure it. Right. Which is pretty cool.
Um, okay. And this leads in really well to, I'm gonna jump, I'm gonna skip a question because this jumps directly into something I wanted to ask you, which was the blog post that you wrote. I loved and the premise was your B2B blog posts weren't even that good before AI. And I want to dig into that. When you say they were built for traffic, not trust, and I think we were just talking about that, but I wanna know right now, content optimized for humans doesn't get found right?
That you have brilliant substack, it's got, you know, 40 readers on it, never sees the light of day. Then you have content optimized for algorithms and it doesn't resonate because it's [00:15:00] not opinionated. It's really thin. It's not helpful or clear, even if it is accurate. I think they both fail, but I wanna press your opinion on this.
What's the actual line before writing for discovery and trust, and how do you know when you've crossed it in the wrong direction? Okay.
Romana: That's a really good one. That's a really good one. You know, I just wanna, of course I want to tell like, wow, I'm producing content that is found by everyone, but I don't, so like, I would love, uh, I would love that. I think what we are doing right now at SaaStorm is like, we are producing, of course for algorithms, for LLMs, for SEO, et cetera, and that's kind of like that AI bots can crawl it and it will be showing up everywhere.
But what we now added, like an additional layer for something for humans as well. So like algorithms will find it, humans will find it, but if humans will open the articles that is made for algorithm only, they will be like, ah, it's just bullshit for AI. By ai, for ai. [00:16:00] But if you add a bit of little extra that will keep the human on a page. They will kind of, they will notice that and they will see it. So I will just give you an example. You can have a wall of text and it's gonna work perfectly for SEO, for LLMO, for AI search, et cetera. But humans, if they open it, they are just like, whatever, I don't care. But if you add, for example, now. We are creating like Loom libraries with other clients when they respond to a certain question and we add it like right underneath H 1.
So even if the entire article is written actually for algorithms and for search, humans will find at least like, oh wow, there is a loom video. These guys did extras. They actually like added a video and then like for some clients we add also some interactive data and only humans actually like to like go with the hover of their mouse and like, wow, it's moving.
It go ups and down. So I think in this way. Maybe humans will not even find the [00:17:00] information they are looking for because they're gonna ask ChatGPT, and that's where it's gonna be found. But if they open my blog and they click through it, I want them to find something that is actually made for humans.
And it's normally humans for humans. That's why like videos work, for example, and very like unpolished looms, et cetera, they are just like perfect. So that's kind of how we balance it.
Nathan: I feel like we have talked for a thousand years before this call because I, I've been telling people forever make videos, stop over polishing, and it's actually gonna be charming with AI because they know that a person took the time to do it. It took the time to just talk from experience with all the ums and ahs in there that it's not.
They didn't script it out beforehand. They're not pulling, you know, one over, they didn't have AI write a script, and they're just good at presenting it. They are just talking off the cuff about what they know really, really well and that that is incredible. And you're right, no B2B blogs had that before.
They were just like, I, I love that take very much. Uh, it [00:18:00] goes back to our laziness. Doesn't it always just.
Romana: Exactly. You're like, oh my God, now I have to ask for this Loom video, and then they will take like five days to make it or maybe they will not. Yeah. It's really like, just like this little extra mile. I honestly literally made everyone in my agency now like to deliver extra mile whatever it is within like our monthly retainer with clients.
We always have to deliver something extra that they kind of don't expect. And I think that's actually like what keeps. I dunno, the engine running people trust in us and us not charging extra 2K because we do AEO and at TLDR at the beginning, you know? So
Nathan: It sounds like building a good relationship. Like when a friend says, Hey, can you pick me up from the airport and you show up early and park and bring a coffee, like that's just a good friend. That's what you do.
Romana: It's so funny is that we just like this basic things became just like you need to create a playbook and say like, comment a playbook, LLM for for me to send it to you. And then you just like write good content and you're like, wow. Incredible
Nathan: [00:19:00] so happy I left that comment. And it helped you with the algorithm juice. Oh, I get sick of that.
Romana: Literally.
Nathan: puke lately. Sorry, I shouldn't say it that bluntly, but it's just been gross. Uh, all right. Here's my question for you, and this is what I think's interesting. I'm fascinated by agencies that charge for systems and architecture.
So building out that plumbing and, and that those systems, especially with AI now being able to, to walk through and, okay, we can use this for research. Human in the loop here, we're gonna do the system. But my question is, if the system with AI starts working the way it should, the client, I could see an argument that they'll eventually, even if they do, might think that they don't need you anymore.
Or at least they need you less. How do you overcome that fear when most people are falling into now I'm just building something that will eventually replace me?
Romana: That's a really good question. I allow all the debates on LinkedIn about this, or anywhere on Reddit, LinkedIn, like I open and everyone's talking about this and my take on [00:20:00] this is like, if I can build something that replaces me, please
Nathan: Oh, I love that.
Romana: I'm like, you know, I'm just like, please, I'm waiting for the day when I will build something that will actually replace me.
So. First of all, if I will do it incredible, I think I will be super rich and I will not need anything. And like probably everyone will want to adopt the same system. Let's be honest. It's not gonna happen. Um, and the thing is like sometimes actually clients were like, yeah, so you build this foundation, we learn how to write content briefs.
We see what you did for us. We don't need you. And I'm like. Sure, but like one month in and they're like, oh, how do you include the HTML table in our CMS? Or they're like, Hmm, our articles started dropping in rankings. Or they're like, oh, we changed your URL structure, but we forgot that 404s exist. Like, and things like, so.
You can't, you still always [00:21:00] need a senior brain in between your operations systems, whatever it is. So I think like if you wanna become like everyone else, when you're just like, Hey ChatGPT, write for me article on AI automation tools and publish it. You can do it, but you will just not get these results.
So like my thing is really like if I can build some things that replace me completely, I would be the happiest person in the world, to be honest. But like. No, you always need to have this like senior moderator always like, because AI literally will take over the world and we will just be living, like I already sometimes feel like I am joining a call and there's like 20 AI note takers and me, and I'm just,
Nathan: Yeah. Like the people can't be bothered to show up and you know they're not gonna listen to it later. You know, they're not gonna
Romana: and I'm just like sitting there. I'm like. I'm like, I'm literally when I can remove them, I'm just like removing one by one, just like from the call. But yeah, no, you always need a human, like it's more, [00:22:00] honestly, if I was a super junior person, it like had really no ambitious, not no, no ambition, no like not a self-starter.
And I had like no really opinions and experience. It would be so much harder to get into this area. Honestly, it's, we touching a very hard topic to be honest, but like, they can be honestly replaced by AI. Literally, they can. Unfortunately, it's so much, I'm so happy. I'm not like at the beginning of my journey now, but like if I have 10 years of experience and I work with like 50 plus companies, I know how it works from inside, I know what, what worked, what didn't. I don't think AI can like replace me at least in the upcoming decade.
Nathan: I. I told someone recently, I'm so happy, like for the first time. So happy to be millennial because I am old enough to have real experience young enough that people still trust that I know tech. I, it's that sweet spot where I'm not like, you know, anyway, we're, I'm gonna
Romana: Yeah. Every time I say like that [00:23:00] my, uh, that I was born in a year, it starts with like 1990. They're like, wow, you know, because now I'm like meeting people. They're like, yeah, I'm 2003, and I'm just like,
Nathan: Oh, that hurts. Oh, it hurts. And they can drink legally in the US and that's weird, like, you know. Oh gosh. Oh God. Yeah. No, I, well, hey, I, I, I'm, I'm an eighties, 1988, and so I've got that. Oh, now I just feel gross. Okay. Uh, my question for you, a follow up, a bonus, because you just brought this up and it, it made me curious, but I will let you get out on time, I swear to you.
So right under the wire, last question I wanna sneak in. If you were to give advice, because now we are the elders, apparently in life, if you were to give advice, someone is. 22 years old, they just got outta college. They really are excited about digital marketing and they look at it and they think, well, what's the point of even trying?
What would you tell them to focus on to build the experience that will matter.
Romana: That's a really good [00:24:00] one. To be honest, I would, first of all, I would find a mentor, someone like you, someone like me, so you can actually talk about things. For example, like I even personally mentor on like Grow Mentor. It sounds like an advertisement, but like, it's actually true. I mean, I am a, a mentor where you can like book a call for 30 minutes and ask me whatever you want.
So I think I never knew about this before when I was starting career and maybe there was not a thing like that. But I would find someone, you can ask the questions and ask for advice. Everyone will have really good ideas, and I think people now really want to share. I feel like everyone is pretty open.
Or at least I am. Um, and then I would just try, I would create my, now it's so easy to white code your own website and just like try, try to create your own blog. Try to create some projects for yourself. You don't need a developer, you don't need a designer. You can like just get this $15 or $20 subscription to Claude and play with all the connectors, with [00:25:00] skills, with cowork.
There's a lot of things. So I think, try play around with AI fail, ask people to like do some little internship or like, uh, be a trainee for them. I think it's just really about like being proactive and like, I hear that recently like just playing around. Like, I was on a talk of a, uh, it was CEO of Remote.com, you know, it's a huge company and he was like.
AI adoption is really hard in the company because everyone's comfortable where they are, but I really encourage everyone to play around with AI. Just play.
Nathan: Yeah, and I think every leader could take a note on that. It was almost like overnight people are like, Hey, keep everything with your job normal. Don't take any breaks, but also become a master in this new technology and build new processes and build new tools. Just. You that kind of, you know, on your own tech please.
But it's like, no.
Romana: Honestly it's, I know I was like, I was sick for a couple of days and then like I was not really checking my [00:26:00] LinkedIn and then I checked my LinkedIn and everyone out of nowhere like mastered Claude Cowork they like built this insane systems and I'm just like, guys like how did you do it? But honestly, that's kind of comes back to it.
Even I need to learn every day something completely new. It is so fast that like even you and me, for us, everything is as new as for this 22 year olds. It just like coming to the same stream. You might have less experience, but you're gonna gain it just like play around. Everything is super new. We are all confused.
We are trying to be like, I'm an AI expert, but everyone is confused about like what's happening and where we all going. To be honest.
Nathan: We're all trying to figure this out and I love the idea of you getting sick for a couple days and then waking up in the hospital to a zombie apocalypse. Like, like in the,
Romana: Literally,
Nathan: yeah, just like, oh no. What did I miss? Okay. That is our time. Uh, thank you so much. I can't thank you enough for being here.
I'm gonna bug you to get your address later to send you that T-shirt. I was adding FAQs [00:27:00] before LLMs were cool. I love this so much. Uh.
Romana: Honestly. Yeah, I was thinking always about like what should be a SaaStorm T-shirt, because I still did not make up a merge, but that's such a good idea. It probably, let's see, but you're gonna be, first. You will send it to me and then we'll
Nathan: Okay, I'll decide
Romana: so much, Nate, for having me. Honestly, this was so fun.
Nathan: you, okay, good. Thank, really, thank you. I know you're very busy. Um, and then how can people contact you if they're looking for a great content that's humanized and it actually drives pipeline, not just traffic.
Romana: Yeah, so you can find me on LinkedIn. It'll be Romana Kutz. I think maybe Nate will add it somewhere with his podcast or SaaStorm.io. You can also always find me.
Nathan: Awesome. Thank you so much. This was great.
Romana: Yeah. Thank you.
Nathan: Here we go. I'm terrible at ending these, but I'm gonna stop now.