BARELY SHIPPING Season 1 · Episode 06

Taste Killed More Good Content Than AI Ever Will

Kayte Grady, Content Director at BlueConic, on why leaders kill good content on taste alone, what brand voice guardrails actually look like in practice, and why the editorial judgment she built with a red pen is the thing that makes her AI stack usable.

Published August 11, 2026 Runtime 29 min Host Nathan Thompson Guest Kayte Yerga Grady · Content Director at BlueConic
▶ Watch on YouTube
Barely Shipping · E06
Listen: YouTube
In this episode 16 chapters
  1. 00:00Intro
  2. 01:25The 96% repeat client rate, and what she had to unlearn going in-house
  3. 03:18Freelance reliability vs. leading a portfolio of 150+ pieces of content
  4. 05:52Brand voice guardrails: what "protecting the voice" means in practice
  5. 07:28The red pen habit that built her editorial judgment
  6. 09:08Why she won't let her 13-year-old have AI write his papers
  7. 10:45From "the ultimate ick" to running Claude as a thought partner
  8. 13:29Time-blocking AI news so it doesn't eat the day
  9. 14:34Three people doing the work of fifteen by 2027
  10. 17:33Welders, electricians, plumbers, and why the trades might outlast content marketers
  11. 18:24Farm camp, quad tires, and the dopamine of getting your hands dirty
  12. 19:34Why CEOs kill good copy on taste, and now do the same to AI drafts
  13. 23:06What "ADHD realist" actually means
  14. 24:47The n8n workflow with too many agents, and the discipline of not building the cool thing
  15. 26:39The real ADHD superpower in her career
  16. 28:10Where to find Kayte
If you did the research, you know what's right and what's correct, you fight for it. You give them a reason. Kayte Yerga Grady · Barely Shipping E06

I recorded an episode with Kayte Grady this week, Content Director at BlueConic, and I went in expecting her to agree with me. She didn’t. That turned out to be the most useful thirty minutes I’ve had in a while.

Here’s the question I asked her, and I’ll admit it was a loaded one.

Before any of this AI nonsense showed up, I watched CEOs take good copy in final review and kill it. Not because the research was wrong. Because they personally didn’t care for it. “My taste says put this on the homepage instead.” No data. No test. A copywriter’s week in the trash, and a homepage that reads beautifully to exactly one person.

Now I’m watching the same leaders do the same move with a new tool. ChatGPT hands them something that sounds like them, they like how it sounds, and it goes live. Same instinct. Faster delivery.

So I asked Kayte why leaders find it so hard to trust the people they hired.

She defended them

Her answer was better than my question.

“Think about a book you like. Think about a style of writing you like, a style of music you like. Taste is personal, taste is individual, taste is unique.”

Then the part that stopped me:

“I think I have the best taste in writing, but there are things that I may not take into consideration. If you have a CEO or a CMO or some C-suite who comes in and they’re like, ‘Oh, I don’t like that,’ that it’s based in taste, not necessarily in wanting to undermine or, you know, dog on the level of work and thought that went into it.”

Her read is that the executive killing your draft usually isn’t dismissing your expertise. They’re having a reaction, the same reaction any of us has to a song or a book, and they happen to have the final say. And her advice to the writer on the other side of it is to stop treating that as an injustice and start treating it as an argument you can win:

“If you did the research, you know what’s right and what’s correct, you fight for it. You give them a reason.”

She compared it to how product teams operate. Nobody expects a PM to get a feature approved by being offended that it was questioned. They come with a reason. Writers, she thinks, should hold themselves to the same standard.

And then she conceded the thing most people won’t:

“At the end of the day, you know, your boss or your boss’s boss is gonna have the final say, and if their taste is what wins, their taste is what wins. Like that’s, that’s the way it’s gonna be.”

I told her on the recording that I thought this was too forgiving to leaders (I still do).

But she also named something I’ve been circling for a year without landing on it, which is that most of these fights aren’t about competence at all. They’re about two people using the same word for different things.

Quality is measurable. Taste is personal.

These get treated as one axis, but they aren’t.

Quality is checkable.

Every one of those has an answer that exists outside your head.

Taste is whether you like the tone. There’s no test for that, because the only instrument is your own preference, and your preference is not the market.

The confusion between them is expensive in a specific and under-discussed way: killed content generates no data. If you spike a draft before it ships, nothing ever contradicts you. There’s no bounce rate, no conversion, no comment section. You get to be right forever about work that never existed.

That’s an unfalsifiable process, and unfalsifiable processes drift toward whoever has the most authority in the room.

Nobody would accept this anywhere else. Nobody kills a feature in staging and then claims the roadmap is validated.

Guardrails are how you take taste out of the loop

Kayte’s answer to keeping one brand voice intact across a team was the least abstract answer I’ve heard anyone give:

“I think protecting the brand voice just gets this abstract, like POV, right? We talk about it in a really abstract way, but it’s really, it comes down to fundamentals. And so the first thing is guardrails.”

And what those guardrails contain:

“Words we naturally use, things that we avoid, how we talk about the tech, how much depth we go into for the tech, you know, is this our tone? Is this the structure we typically go by?”

The part that matters most is who they apply to:

“Whether it’s myself, whether it’s AI, whether it’s another person, whether it’s, you know, demand gen creating ads, it, it doesn’t matter. We have guardrails in place.”

Herself included. That’s the whole thing. Guardrails that exempt the person who wrote them are a style guide for junior staff, not a quality system.

And this is what actually resolves the tension between her position and mine.

She’s right that you’ll never remove taste from leadership, because someone with final say will always have a gut reaction to the work. But you can make the criteria specific enough that “I don’t like it” stops being a sufficient reason to kill something clearing every measurable bar. Make the leader argue against the standard rather than their mood that day. And if the standard turns out to be wrong, change the standard, in writing, so the next draft benefits.

That’s the difference between a decision and a preference.

Taste is also wrong sometimes, and she proved it on herself

The best evidence against gut reaction in this conversation came from Kayte’s own story.

When ChatGPT first launched, her CMO called her and her director of content in to show it off, and typed a prompt asking it to write a story about the two of them.

“Robots are running the world. They’re gonna destroy my career. Like, this is the worst thing I’ve ever seen.”

She shut it down. Wouldn’t use it. In her words, it gave her “the ultimate ick.”

Today she runs an agent stack she describes as far too complicated, built out of Claude and n8n, and she’s blunt about the fact that she built the engine and still puts the keys in herself every time instead of letting it run.

She was completely certain, and completely wrong, about a technology she now works in daily. That’s not a knock on her. It’s the honest case for why no single person’s reaction, however senior and however experienced, should be the final quality gate. Taste is a real signal. It just isn’t a reliable one, and the people with the most of it are the ones who most need something to check it against.

The 2027 version of this problem

She also said something that I think is the actual stake here. On the SEO-templated content most of us produced for a decade:

“A lot of it was performative. I mean, we, we did it, right? And we did it for, as a means to an end, but I, like, welcome the replacement of that.”

Then the question underneath it:

“If the machine can do it, right? And the machine, we know the machine can do a lot. It might not be able to do it all well, but it can do it a lot. What is the human there for?”

Her answer is judgment, and she’s specific about where hers came from. She used to print what she wrote, take a red pen, read the words out loud, and circle the things that didn’t make sense.

“So would somebody actually say this? Like, does it sound good, or does it make sense? Because those are two different things.”

Ask whether she’d rather have skipped those years and let the tools handle it and the answer is no:

“Without that skill, I wouldn’t be able to use AI as well as I do now.”

That’s the part people racing to automate keep missing. The judgment isn’t left over after the machine does its part. It’s the thing that makes the machine’s part usable, and it was built by doing the boring work first.

An honest admission

I don’t think you can get taste out of leadership, and I’m not sure you should want to. Kayte is right that a leader with a strong reaction is often reacting to something real that the writer didn’t consider.

She’s also right that most writers lose those arguments because they show up offended rather than prepared.

Where I still (respectfully) disagree with her: “their taste is what wins” is a description of how it works, not necessarily a defense of it. Plenty of things that are true about org charts are bad for the business, and this is one of them. The fact that a CEO gets the final call doesn’t mean the final call should be made on a preference nobody wrote down.

What I’d add to her framework is a burden of proof. If it clears the guardrails and someone kills it anyway, that’s fine, but it should cost something: a written reason, and an update to the standard so the next person isn’t guessing. Preferences that survive being written down are usually judgment. The ones that don’t survive it were never judgment to begin with.

Three people doing the work of fifteen only works if quality is defined somewhere other than one person’s gut. Otherwise you’ve automated production and left the bottleneck exactly where it always was, except now it processes drafts faster.

In a factory like Willy Wonka’s, pipes come before the chocolate river can exist. Build the system that decides what’s good before you build the system that makes things fast.


Kayte Yerga Grady is Content Director at BlueConic. The full conversation is on Barely Shipping. Quotes are from the episode transcript, lightly trimmed for filler.

Frequently asked

// These power the FAQ schema, questions and answers stay in sync
What is the difference between quality and taste in content?
Quality is checkable against something outside your own head: does it answer the question the reader asked, is it accurate, does the structure hold, would a customer recognise it as true. Taste is whether you personally like the tone, and the only instrument for measuring it is your own preference. Treating the two as one axis is what lets a preference kill work that cleared every measurable bar.
How do you protect brand voice across a team and AI at the same time?
With written guardrails rather than an abstract point of view: the words you naturally use, the words you avoid, how you talk about the technology, how much depth you go into, your tone, and your usual structure. The important part is that the guardrails apply to everyone equally, including the person who wrote them, AI drafts, and other teams producing ads.
What should a writer do when a leader kills their draft on taste?
Come with a reason instead of an objection. Kayte's argument is that product managers do not get features approved by being offended that they were questioned, and writers should hold themselves to the same standard: if you did the research, you know what is correct, and you fight for it with evidence.
Does killing content before it ships have a cost?
Yes, and it is easy to miss. Content that never ships generates no data, so nothing ever contradicts the decision to kill it. There is no bounce rate, no conversion, and no comment section, which makes the process unfalsifiable and lets it drift toward whoever holds the most authority in the room.
Will three people really do the work of fifteen?
Only if quality is defined somewhere other than one person's gut. Otherwise you have automated production and left the bottleneck exactly where it always was, except now it processes drafts faster.
Full transcript click to expand

Nathan: All right. Welcome to, I think this is like the fifth episode of "Barely Shipping," so still just a young pup in podcast days. But today we're gonna talk about what it actually takes to make B2B content convert, not by being louder or more clever or even more engaging, but by being clear enough that the reader gets their answer and can act on it. Uh, obviously louder and clever and all those things are good, but we're gonna dive more into that. Uh, I'm sitting down today with Kayte, not Kate, Kayte Yerga Grady, content director at BlueConic, and one of the sharpest voices that I've found at the intersection of brown vo- uh, brand voice conversion and building content systems that actually run. impressively, at least to me, and I'll have some questions on this, is Kayte kept a 96% repeat business as a freelancer rate and has extensive experience in both B2C and B2B marketing, giving her a nuanced take on what it means to succeed in both. She is also an ADHD realist who thinks systems beat willpower, which is a lot of what this show is about.

And, uh, as someone who can empathize with having ADD and trying to live in the world of marketing, uh, I'm not even sure if we're gonna talk about anything planned today, but we're gonna try a bit. Kayte, uh, tell me what I got wrong. Where, what did I miss in the introduction?

Kayte: None of it. I loved it. Everything was perfect.

Nathan: Something-

Kayte: Everything was perfect. Nope, I loved it, every last word. Fantastic intros. So thank you so much for having me on. I appreciate it

Nathan: All right. Well, I wanna dive first into what I think is really cool, that you kept a 96% repeat business rate as a freelancer. Um, that really jumped out at me n- just because even more than any of your writing awards or the conversions that you've had in the past, I just think that's really cool that when people work with you, they want to keep working with you. were you doing that made clients wanna not leave? And did that skill survive to the move in-house, or did you have to kinda unlearn what you were doing to make clients so happy?

Kayte: Um, okay. So I think there were two things, right? And so first, I care very deeply about the quality of my work, and so anytime I shipped anything, I wanted to make sure that it was, like, ready to be shipped, right? If final, final, you know, final, underscore final. Um, I tried to make sure that it was as close to done and as close to publishing as possible.

Um, a- and that meant, you know, doing my due diligence and ensuring that I met the brief, and I met the word count, and did everything that they were asking me to do. Um, and second, I really, really focused and was obsessive about deadlines, which is so funny because if my family decides to listen to this, I am late for everything always and forever until the day I die.

I am on time with absolutely nothing, do everything last minute. But when it came to my work and it came to be a freelancer, um, those ... The deadline thing, you wanted it on Friday, you had it on Thursday, and you had it as done as it could be. And so I think that was super helpful. Um, and I think people like that.

I think when I work with freelancers now, like, you have somebody who ships something out, you're like, "Oh, great. Perfect. It's, it's done. It's good, and it's on time." Like, what more can you ask for, right? Um, I didn't have to unlearn that in-house, but I did have to learn that, that reliability looks different.

Um, so when you're a freelancer, that one piece of content in front of you, like, that's the unicorn. Like, that's the focus, that's the priority. At a, in a director-level position in-house, my job isn't to optimize, like, one thing to death. It's to optimize an entire portfolio of content across channels, across mediums.

Um, and so the, the idea of, "Oh, I have this white paper and I said I was gonna get it shipped by Friday," um, I might not be able to do that because it's not the most responsible choice. Sometimes the most responsible choice is, like, jumping into a product launch or jumping in to support sales, jumping in to support demand gen.

So that level of leadership asks you to kind of zoom out. You're constantly making trade-offs. Um, and one of those trade-offs ended up being I had to stop freelancing, funny enough that you should ask this, because I learned very quickly that I can't be excellent everywhere. And if I wanna be excellent in-house, I cannot continue to freelance alongside my full-time job because I wanna build something where I'm at.

And so ironically, the lesson, um, that, you know, I learned as a freelancer and that I am working on in-house is, like, you keep your commitments, but those commitments just look different now

Nathan: I love that.

Kayte: Yeah.

Nathan: like, uh, it's

like aggressive prioritization in-house that you have to flow with, right? Yeah. I,

Kayte: ruthless prioritizing stuff. Ruthless

Nathan: I do-- I have to ask you this 'cause I'm the same way. family and my wife roll their eyes at how, not necessarily late, I could be very punctual, but I am so disorganized in my personal life, and they are shocked when I do-- like, they see me work from home or something, at how crazy organized I am for clients.

Why do you think that is?

Kayte: Of the dopamine. Like, because there's, because you get those, you get the little sprinkle of like that, that adrenaline and that dopamine, you're like, if the one thing fails, the rest of it falls apart, and like that's the money, like that's the job. Like that's, that's the supportive income, right? And so like to me, if I, if my, if I shove one thing in the back of the fridge, right, if I'm shoving my leftovers in the back and I forget about them for a month and a half 'cause I can't see them so they don't exist, that there's no consequence to that, right?

The consequence to not being organized at work and being on time, it's much more significant than it is with leftovers in the back of the fridge or the keys that are somehow under a couch cushion

Nathan: I love-- So I gotta tell my family, j-just give me more dopamine for being more organized in my life. me more to show

Kayte: Like a little treat. Can I get like a shiny gold star or something? That'd be

Nathan: Oh, a

Kayte: You

Nathan: so you are--

Kayte: look super excited. Nice.

Nathan: talked about, you know, now you have w- I loved how you said you have one piece of content when you're working with a client.

That's the unicorn. That's the, that's what you're working on. And now you are juggling a lot more in-house, and so you're protecting a single brand voice across, let's say, 150 plus pieces of content or however many hundreds of content, um, and what sounds like a bunch of different teams. Operationally, what does protecting the voice actually mean on, like, a Tuesday afternoon?

Because I've heard a lot of people say we need to add that human touch, especially with AI, they can't concretely tell me what that looks like adding the human touch. How do you keep things from sounding AI-generated across all of those pieces of content, uh, and in the different voices they need to be in?

Kayte: You know what's so funny? I think protecting the brand voice just gets this abstract, like POV, right? We talk about it in a really abstract way, but it's really, it comes down to fundamentals. And so the first thing is guardrails. Whether it's myself, whether it's AI, whether it's another person, whether it's, you know, demand gen creating ads, it, it doesn't matter.

We have guardrails in place, and so words we naturally use, things that we avoid, how we talk about the tech, how much depth we go into for the tech, you know, is this our tone? Is this the structure we typically go by? And when you have those, like, foundational guardrails in place, that makes it a lot easier, and AI is certainly an imperfect tool.

Like, there's no, there's no way around that. Um, but when you have that, that, that foundation built, you have something to build on and continue to change over time. Um, another thing I really like, I use dictation features a ton, and so I think when we're speaking like this, it is vastly different than when I'm typing a piece of content.

My typing and my writing, not in Slack, God no, um, but my typing and my writing is gonna be a lot more buttoned up. It's gonna be a lot more formal. I'm gonna use bigger words. I'm gonna use commas and punctuation, and it sounds stiff. Whereas when you're dictating or you're having a conversation, you're just being who you are and speaking how you speak, and I think that using that to help train your AI or work with other people or build your brand voice and guardrails is, um, super helpful.

And finally, I would say good judgment. Like, good judgment, like, you have to have it, and I think that when I'm reviewing some- not I think that, when I'm reviewing something, I'm reading it out loud, and I'm asking my... And I've done this from the time I started freelancing. I, I used to print, I used to print what I wrote, and I would get a red pen, literally a red pen, and I would sit and I would read my words out loud and, like, circle the things that didn't make sense and go back on a computer and make changes.

This is probably dating myself quite a bit. Um, but I think when you read out loud, you can, you understand a lot more of what you're writing. So would somebody actually say this? Like, does it sound good, or does it make sense? Because those are two different things.

Nathan: Yes.

Kayte: And bringing...

Nathan: I

Kayte: Good.

Nathan: you're a millennial, right?

Kayte: Elder, elder millennial.

I'm elder.

Nathan: millennial.

Kayte: No, I'd rather get... No, but I'm being honest. I'm not, I'm not, I don't, but that's not like a bad thing that... No, like, I get classified into that bucket that's like tippy, tippy top

Nathan: Okay. Well, I am a millennial as well, and so we share that. And I do feel bad. I feel like every other after just isn't gonna have that kind of experience to ma- have them like give them razor-sharp judgment because they've never printed things out and did the red pen. And you learn a lot through that really gross painstaking practice.

Kayte: It's

Nathan: Do

Kayte: so painful

Nathan: you-- Are you thankful for having that skill, or do you just wish that you could just grow up and have chat do it for you? Like just be

Kayte: No. No, because you don't... I, I mean, listen, I love AI as much as I've been on my, on this podcast talking to you about AI, right? But like, no, I think without that skill, I wouldn't be able to use AI as well as I do now. Um, I, and, and to make it sound human and protect that voice, like I think without that skill, I would have a really, really hard time.

It's funny, I have a 13-year-old son, and we were talking about writing papers, and he's like, "Oh, I'll just have it." And I was like, "You will not have AI do it for you." You know? You have to develop that fundamental skill of actually writing, and I don't care what it looks like, I don't care how bad it is, because that's where everything comes from, right?

And you have to be able to have good judgment to then make the tools work for you

Nathan: Jay, are you finding that hard with kids? 'Cause I have a, I have a nine-year-old. He doesn't have to write essays yet, and I know the teenage years are coming. Are you finding that hard to teach those skills, not just to your kids, but also to newer employees on how like, no, we have to do it, sometimes we have to do it the boring way if we want this to be good? Or are you

Kayte: No.

Nathan: people are receptive?

Kayte: Um, I would say new employees, uh, actually come on because a lot of... We work in SaaS, right? And so AI is very accepted across most of the companies we deal with. But like, if you even so much as go into finserve, like there's a different, it, it, there are different rules, right? There's legality to it, there's protection.

And so I think a lot of people, no matter how young they come into the industry we're in, the, they're not used to using AI like we are. Like, it's still a very new tool. So they come in with those fundamental foundational skills, and they're, I'd be more likely to say they come in open to using AI versus me having to say, "Don't use it.

Do it the hard way." They come in and they're like, "Teach me everything," like, "Let's do it." It's, it's, they think it's a really cool tool. So I haven't had that experience. But with like, with the, my son, I'm like, " I'm gonna look up math questions on..." Go, like, "Stop. No, you have to..." I, I mean, I hate, I'm not a math girlie.

Don't give me a problem. I don't want anything to do with it, but you have to learn how to do it so you can then, you know, use a calculator later. You

Nathan: Yeah.

Kayte: think it's, it's the same premise.

Nathan: have to learn to use a calculator before you use AI for your math. I do like

Kayte: Exactly. First you write it, then the calculator, then GPT will do it for you. There is a process

Nathan: right. Well, okay, so I'm curious about you as, uh, and I don't believe that you're an older millennial, but I'm gonna take you at your word. Uh, you are, uh, a self-proclaimed AI content gen convert, and you do use Claude as a thought partner.

I would love to know about your relationship with AI from the time that it came out just a few years ago, it's evolved, if you always felt comfortable with it, if you've seen the improvements and they won you over. What, what made you finally start using Claude as a thought partner, or have you always been comfortable with that?

Kayte: You know? So I always like to tell this story when people are like, "Oh, you're, you love AI. You're so AI forward." When, uh, OpenAI, when ChatGPT first came out, my CMO at the time called up my director of content and myself, and he was like, "You guys, look at this really cool tool." And he was like, "Write a story about Kayte and Erica."

He, like, types on the screen. And, you know, GPT was new, so it was terrible, but it was, you know, it created the story, and I was like, " I don't ever wanna see that again." I was like, "Robots are running the world. They're gonna destroy my career. Like, this is the worst thing I've ever seen." I, I literally was like, "No."

I shut it down. I was like, "I don't wanna use that." I was like, it gave me the ultimate ick, right? Like, it really did. Which is so funny c- compared to where I am now, right? Um, I hated it. And so I'm much further along in how I use it than I thought I would be, right? I'm obsessed now, I would say, with agentic marketing and the idea that these tools can, you know, do these repetitive tasks, and I get to be creative and strategic and make all these decisions, but I don't have to worry about publishing on Webflow, like, like copy and pasting things on Webflow.

Claude can do that. Like, are you kidding me? That is amazing. Um, and so I've built, I've built up my Claude skills. I have, you know, a very, very complicated NAD with far too many agents that I'm sure could function better if I, like, broke it apart. But, you know, if you're gonna build it, you might as well go big or go home, I suppose.

Um, and so, but I would say that's as far as I've gotten. And part of the reason for that, and I'll, I'll call myself on this, call myself out on this, is I built the engine, but what I need to do is, like, put the keys in and let it run, as opposed to putting the keys in every time myself. Um, so it's just about scheduling and creating, like, the, the end, the end loop of that workflow to make it run on its own.

I already trust these tools. I already have them do things. Um, but what I need them to do, um, is run on their own. I just, I haven't gotten that far. And part of that is just time, and AI is evolving so much, too. Like, I need time to learn. I need time to see what's new. And so I think it's about making that a priority so I can do all these things autonomously and rather than a thought partner and having conversations with Claude or therapy or whatever you're gonna do that day.

It, it's really about making the time to do those things and learning, like, what's, what's the best way to do this?

Nathan: Yeah, I, there was a quote going a- around a while back that you basically had to be unemployed to keep up with AI if you wanted to get employed with AI. And I was like, "Yeah, that's pretty spot on," 'cause it's changing so fast

Kayte: It is so true. I just challenged my, challenged my team, um, to time block 10 minutes every few days to review AI news because there's, there's no way... If I go down a rabbit hole, I get so sucked in and gets, it, it gets so far away from the one thing that I'm trying to learn. Where if I time block 10 minutes a day to read three newsletters, right?

In my... I have an AI newsletter inbox that I don't open as often as I should. If I time block 10 minutes to skim those, I can learn, you know, seven different things and have the information I need. It, it is re- Like, I don't know how people are so advanced with learning about it all because I, I don't know when they do that

Nathan: I think just, at least for me, AI, uh, has replaced social media scrolling at work, and people are just doing it anyway and pretending like they're not, is what I think happened. Uh, you talked about this a little bit about, like, you got the ick. I love that. You got the ick from AI when it first came out. Um,

Kayte: Okay.

Nathan: but then also, you know, like you brought up agentic marketing and we are seeing some really cool things. And let's say that in 2027 y- uh, three people can do what 15 people are, are doing now. someone who leads content and you see how your own work has changed over the past 18 months to 24 months, uh, does it still scare you?

Does it excite you? Are you nervous? Are you more nervous about the next generation, like your kids? Like, I come back to that all the time. I'm not sure what they're gonna do. What makes you nervous? What excites you? Um, and, and what I-- I can't... What are the message for the children? No, what would be the, your advice to the next group of marketers coming in?

Kayte: So, this is a tricky one because I'm gonna give you a safe answer, but it's not really meant to be safe. I think the answer is both. So I think, yes, it's frightening, and yes, it's exciting, and I think it's a yes and, right? Um, I think a lot of the conte- content work, you know, we were talking about, like, printing out the paper and marking it up with a red pen, but in general, a lot of the content work that we've all done and grown up doing, you know, that SEO, keyword-driven template for everything, uh, that, that...

A lot of it was performative. I mean, we, we did it, right? And we did it for, as a means to an end, but I, like, welcome the replacement of that. I welcome, like, oh my God, I don't have to... I mean, I... Even Grammarly, for an example, I've been using Grammarly for years. You mean I don't have to remember, like, the comma goes here and not...

Like, thank God. Like, that, that takes away that heavy lift, right? Um, but it kind of forces that uncomfortable question of if the machine can do it, right? And the machine, we know the machine can do a lot. It might not be able to do it all well, but it can do it a lot. What is the human there for? And so I think that's the scary part, and I think that's the part for the younger generation of content marketers coming up, I think for, um, you know, children, I think i- it's, it...

That's the uncomfortable part of it all. And then I think it's like how do we move forward with that responsibly? And something that, um, my husband and I always talk about, we have three boys, um, they're now growing up in a completely different age, uh, than we did. Um, and it's, it's how do you teach digital responsibility?

So how do you teach them to be responsible with technology, with a phone, with AI, with access to everything at their fingertips that we, we simply didn't have, um, because they're going to continue having it. It's not about, you know, withholding or taking away, it's about teaching them to use it responsibly, and then also building up those foundations.

So first the paper, then the calculator, then GPT, but you have to learn how to do the thing so you get the end result that you're looking for

Nathan: I really like it. And it's a lot more optimistic than I've heard a lot of people say, which is just everything's done and we're all going, we're all going the way of the robots. And I love that very much.

Kayte: No, I don't think we'll let the... I, I, I can't... Here's the thing. People need jobs to stimulate the economy,

Nathan: Yeah

Kayte: and so, like, eventually, eventually I think there will be a full circle moment where things kind of right themselves. I mean, we saw this in the Industrial Revolution as well. Things change, things are different.

Um, but I, I think the world has a way of righting itself. It just, who knows when that will be. We just have to go with it and teach the next generation how to do all these things responsibly, at least for now, and only time will tell

Nathan: Well, that's better than my take. I've been taking my-- They're nine and seven, and I'm just having them, uh, learn how to really wash the appliances in our home. So practice washing robots, I'm pretty sure that's just what we're gonna be doing for a while.

Kayte: I disagree. No, I disagree. Uh, it'll be a valuable skill, sure. We need someone to wash robots, and I agree with that. But think about all the things that I, I always... Like, AI can't do, and so we have welders and machinists and plumbers and electricians and, you know, all of these trades that have been grasping for people for years.

Like, the, the... And, you know, you have, like, the boomer generation retiring, and now what? Because our generation, we went to college, we got jobs in tech, we did all, you know? And so to me, again, it's things kind of righting themselves in a different way that we don't often take into consideration, because the trades need people desperately, and that's not something a robot, at least for the time being, can do

Nathan: It's funny you say that. My kids, 'cause it's obviously summertime, which is just the most fun for parents of young kids, uh, to have at home running around. We got them in a, a camp, and it's like a farm camp.

Kayte: Yeah

Nathan: they changed the tires on a quad. I am not, uh, this is gonna shock you, I'm not the most mechanically inclined person on the planet.

Uh, crazy, I know.

Kayte: It, it's shocking

Nathan: face when he was describing what they were doing, he was so excited and happy and, like, about having done this work that I was like, I don't think I've ever felt that way turning in a blog post where I was like, "Yeah," like, "I got my hands dirty on that." Like, I like it. It's fun.

There is that dopamine. But he was like, he was dirty and just absolutely loved it, and I thought, okay, there's still gonna be things that give people fulfillment. That's gonna be really cool. Um

Kayte: And yeah, and it's still, it's not just fulfillment, but it's also a means to an end for things that have to be done to keep the literal infrastructure of the world running.

Nathan: 好。哦

Kayte: And so like there's, there's more to it I think. I think we, we, again, we work in this industry where AI is so, so accepted and so heavily talked about and leaned upon.

The rest of the world doesn't necessarily have that same POV or same experience

Nathan: All right, I'm gonna hit you with a question kind of from left field. Uh, there was like-- I'm so sorry to put you on the spot, and I'll take it out if you don't want it. But it occurred to me yesterday, I was thinking, uh, CEOs let's say 2021, before any of this AI nonsense came out, um, they-- I, I've seen them take really good copy in the final review just kill it and change it and water it down and say, "No, I like this," without any consideration to like this is what the audience likes.

It's like, "No, my taste is this, so we're gonna put this on the homepage or put this on the landing page." Copywriters spend a lot of time doing it, get something done, a CEO kills it. And now I'm seeing a bunch of the same leadership take whatever ChatGPT gives them because it's prompted in the way that they're gonna like it, and then they'll put it there, and both led to underperforming results. do you think it's so hard for some leaders to let the people do what they hired them to do without meddling, especially with stuff like writing or content where you can't, you can't measure it until it's out there? So you can never say this is right or wrong until it's been put into the world, and if you kill something before it's put in the world, you can always convince yourself that you were right.

Why do you think it's hard for some leaders to, to just trust their content team?

Kayte: I don't think... You know what I think? Like zooming out of this question is what I'm gonna do here, and it's not, it's not for a lack of not answering the question. Think about a book you like. Think about a style of writing you like, a style of music you like. Taste is personal, taste is individual, taste is unique.

Um, and frankly, when it comes to writing, as you know, you ha- a copywriter by trade, right? Um, I think I have the best taste in writing, but there are things that I may not take into consideration. If you have a CEO or a CMO or some C-suite who comes in and they're like, "Oh, I don't like that," that it's based in taste, not necessarily in wanting to undermine or, you know, dog on the level of work and thought that went into it.

I also think it's important for writers to remember that, like, if you feel strongly about something, and this goes for in your career in general, if you did the research, you know what's right and what's correct, you fight for it. You give them a reason. "This is why I did..." At the end of the day, you know, your boss or your boss's boss is gonna have the final say, and if their taste is what wins, their taste is what wins.

Like that's, that's the way it's gonna be. But I think that you have to fight for what you think is right and give a good reason, just the same way product has to give a good reason for why they're gonna develop this next feature over the feature they talked about in October and they found a new feature, they think it's gonna be better.

They run it by the CEO. The CEO says, "Well, that's not what we told our clients. That's not what we told our customers. Why are you gonna do that?" You have to fight for it. It's, to me, it's the same premise

Nathan: I like that take. I think it's too forgiving to leaders, but I do like that take a lot. And especially, I've had a hard time staying

Kayte: I've been really lucky to have good leaders, I think. I think when it comes down to it, I've been really lucky to have good leaders too. So I can't, I can't... I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna, um, I'm not gonna fight that too much. But I, I've been lucky that when someone wants to change my work, I can go to bat for myself, and most of the time it is not, it is not changed in a way that I wouldn't think is okay.

Nathan: that's really cool. All right. That's great. Okay, I have been all over the place, uh, in this conversation, so thank you for your patience. One last question related to what I just said, where we've been talking about, um, SaaS, the changes in SaaS, but then also at the, at the intro, we have chatted, uh, briefly in the past about, uh, ADHD, and you describe yourself as an ADHD realist before anything else.

What do you mean by that?

Kayte: Um, I think because for so long, especially as a young woman diagnosed in, I'm gonna go with late '80s, early '90s, I don't quite remember, um, you kind of think you need to be someone different, and you kind of think like, "Oh, my brain doesn't work right. Oh, I don't function correctly." Um, when I stopped expecting that to change, I became an ADHD realist.

Like, I know what this is. I know my limitations. I know my strengths. I know where I need support. I know where I don't. I know where meds come in handy. I know when I don't need them or want them. Um, and so when I stopped trying to do all these things to change like the reality of the situation, um, I think I just became more real.

It wasn't about being more disciplined or more organized or better at remembering things. Um, it was just about being better at just being myself and being kind of who I actually am

Nathan: Do you find in, specifically in SaaS, and it's specifically now where you can almost build anything in terms of like systems, do you find... I, I, I me- I'll throw myself under the bus. One of the problems that I have, and then we'll get to the strengths of it in a second, I was diagnosed late with ADD, and one thing I really liked about you, I was diagnosed right at around the time I saw you posting on it in LinkedIn, and I really liked the fact never saw you complain or use it as an excuse. It was always just, this is how things are, like you said, and very realist about it. There are positives and negatives. I wanna talk really quickly about a negative where I at least find for myself to get into a bunch of different builds now that I can build anything, and I'm like, " Oh, I can make this and I can add this, and why don't I add this?"

And it gets me excited,

and then I kinda lose the forest for the trees. Do you find the same with you, or are, are we on different brands of this thing?

Kayte: Well, if you recall my last answer about my n8n was it has a bunch of different agents and I built it so complicated that I'm like, "Okay, I need to go back and, like, divide it up so it's more functional," because it's just like agent after agent after agent. But with that being said, um, some of it comes down to time and, like, other things that have to be handled and other priorities that I just have to focus on, and like, if one has to give, it's gonna have to be the cool thing, you know, temporarily.

But I also have to really, really, really ask myself if, am I going to be able to leverage this? If so, for what? And then if it's just because it's really freaking cool, like is that a good enough reason for me to build it right now in this moment when if I do this, then I'm work- if I do this, I'm not doing that.

If I do this build, if I'm working on this workflow and I skip reviewing the ad copy this week, but then I have to do that at 5:30 as opposed to at 4:30 because I got sucked into this, that's taking away from my kids. And so I try to think about it, um, from the lens of like, if I'm doing this, I'm not doing that, and if it's nothing more than cool, unless I can really, really learn something from it, it's gonna teach me like a skill that I can use in my company now, in my career, uh, I, I say no to it because I know myself much...

Hence the n8n with far too many agents all built on top of each other in this really, really long str- like I, I, I get too, I get to get in too deep. So I just have to be really discerning

Nathan: That is, you have much more wisdom than I do in that way. I just get so excited. I'm like, "Oh, let's

Kayte: It's so funny now.

Nathan: let's add

Kayte: Okay.

Nathan: street."

Kayte: It's so cool. It is. It really is. And some, I, I can't, it's a really good podcast answer, right? I can't say it's always that way. Like I c- I cannot without a doubt say I always do that. It's just what I try to do

Nathan: I, I do wanna learn more about these agents, but I wanna ask you one last question. I know we're coming up to time, and again, thank you. Uh, we're staying a bit late too, so thank you very much. last question is on the same subject. We talked about, you know, I, I do tend to get distracted, overly excited. Um, people have though talked about, uh, ADD as kind of a superpower in ways, and I, I don't wanna lead the witness. I've, I've seen ways where it can be kind of an advantage. But do you find that you have certain advantages in this area because, uh, because of this, and you've just accepted it, you're not trying to change it? Do, have you, have you found the superpower in ADHD working in SaaS?

Kayte: I have been able to put my mind to literally anything to move my career upwards. Um, I think that that is something that gets overlooked a lot. People often think that ADHD, it's like that hyperactivity, and no, I can't sit still. This is- the fact that I've been sitting still for 27 minutes now should shock you.

Yeah. Um, but it's that level of hyperfocus and that I wanna do this, I wanna succeed. People wouldn't expect me to succeed in this, and so I'm gonna, I'm, I have no one to prove wrong. I'm just gonna prove that I can. And so I think that is an incredibly empowering thing. It's an empowering thing for women in tech.

Um, it's empowering for neurodivergent people of, of all types. And so to me, that's the unlock. And now that's not to say my, my, my keys aren't in the fridge along with those leftovers from two weeks ago. But the hyperfocus and that drive to do the thing, um, that, that's the greatest lever I have in my career

Nathan: Oh, that's great. That's a great answer. Okay, I'm gonna end this by just saying, seen a couple videos you've been making on LinkedIn. They seem to be a recent thing. You need to make more. You're just killing it. I know you, I know you hate it, and you hate being on camera, and I had to bully you for months to talk to me on camera. But you gotta make

Kayte: It was boring

Nathan: Absolutely. All right. Kayte, thank you so much for, uh, chatting today. I really appreciate it. Um, where can people find you if they wanna, uh, reach out? Don't bug Kayte with messages or anything, but if they wanna like your content and follow you, where can they find you? LinkedIn?

Kayte: LinkedIn. LinkedIn's the best place. Uh, it's K-A-Y-T-E, and last name is G-R-A-D-Y.

Nathan: All right. Thank you so much. Really appreciate it.

Kayte: Thank you so much. Thanks for having me, Nathan. Talk to you

Nathan: Bye.

Kayte: soon. Bye.

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